Tori Dunlap maintains that she was put on this earth to fight for women’s financial rights, help them make what they’re worth, build wealth, and get financially educated.
She’s an internationally recognized millennial money and career expert who quit her corporate job in marketing and founded Her First $100K to fight financial inequality by giving women the resources to better their knowledge about money.
“Women play small because we’ve been told that we shouldn’t play big.” – Tori Dunlap
Tori joins Rich for the second time on the show to share why she thinks women still don’t have financial equality. She discusses her work as an educator about money, gives actionable tips, and explores systemic oppression and current financial norms that keep women from gaining agency over their cash.
“The feminist movement is wanting equality — and not just for women, but equality for everybody, but it doesn’t happen until we have financial agency.” – Tori Dunlap
Rich: Hey, what's good. This is Rich. And you're listening to Paychecks and Balances a podcast at the intersection of work money and life. And if you're new, know that you're joined by thousands of professionals navigating their finances and careers to achieve the freedom they want. And speaking of freedom, this Saturday, June 19th is Juneteenth, which commemorates the end of slavery, but not the end of the oppression because there's still so much work to be done.
And a question that I'm constantly asking myself, that I'm also asking you is what's your role. What's the part that you want to play in all of this. And that can mean a lot of different things as for today's show. I'm catching up with the number one woman, personal finance content creator on Tik Tok, and longtime friend of the show Tori Dunlap about her rise and how she's leveraged financial wit for financial gain.
You'll also hear how passion does indeed pay off. And I surprised Tory at the end with something that I tried, that's new. And speaking of something new, I'm starting a little spinoff show on an app called fireside, which is kind of like a more podcast friendly version of Clubhouse. And I'm going to be answering listener questions on the career and personal finance fronts live.
So think free coaching and also productive discussion. So if you're interested in having your question answered on the show, if you're interested in some live coaching on this spinoff show or on Paychecks and Balances, because I'll be sharing some of that content here, drop an email to firstname.lastname@example.org again that's info at paybal dot co for consideration.
And I'm looking forward to seeing what comes in and having members of the P&B family join me live. So that's all I got for updates. Here's my conversation with Tori and I hope you enjoy
Rich: Tori. Welcome back to the podcast.
Tori: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Rich: It's insane because it's been since 2019 when you were last on the podcast, but it feels like it was like 2018, 17. It feels like it was a really, really long time ago to me. And I guess 2019 is a long time ago, but it feels like two or three X that just given how much has been going on over the past couple of years.
Tori: Well, in 2020, it felt like a decade. That was not a year. That was a decade.
Rich: I actually came back from New Orleans on March 11th was the day after my birthday. And then that flight back is when everything just went left. That's when the UK travel ban happened. That's when the NBA game got shut down and then they went into the pause period or whatever you call that.
There were a couple other things that were happening and then pretty much from March 11th till now my ass has been home. Like many of us. I know, uh, we're excited about getting back to some semblance of a normalcy, but yeah, it's been a long time and it, and I shared a little. In the, uh, interim, uh, about your background, but for those who are not familiar, tell the P&B family a little bit about yourself.
We'll definitely talk about some of the exciting things you have going on right now, because I'm a low-key NBSR
Tori: that's very kind, it's been, it's been a crazy couple of years. So I'm Tori Dunlap. I run her first hundred K, which is the money and career platform for women. Uh, I believe I was put on this earth to fight for women's financial rights.
So I work as a money speaker and educator. I help women all over the world, pay off debt, save money, start investing, negotiate their salaries, start online businesses. And we're a community of over 1.5 million. So absolutely crazy. Yeah. Uh, this time last year we were at about 30,000 and now we're at 1.5 million.
So yeah, we had our, we have our Facebook group, we had Instagram, but I hadn't even started on Tik TOK this time, last year. And it's just crazy to see the growth, but yeah, I it's my favorite thing to do in the world. And I don't think we have any sort of equality for marginalized groups, including women until we have financial equality.
And so my work is as an educator around money, but not just the how to, but also like let's talk about systemic oppression. Let's talk about wage gaps. Let's talk about racist, sexist systems that exist that continually keep us from gaining agency. So my work is trying to do both of those things. It's not just, here's the exact steps to pay off debt and save money, but also let's acknowledge all of the shit that you have to overcome or all the barriers that are in your way to even get to that.
Rich: Yes. Yes. And you said something there that made me think of a purpose right away. You were like, I'm here to help with, and I become a lot more clear in my own purpose over the last year. How did you get so clear in
Tori: that? I think it was realizing that the financial education I had had as a kid was a privilege.
I just thought that was normal for everybody. I thought it was normal to know how to save money, know how to stay out of credit card debt. No, how to even negotiate. And I had parents, I was lucky enough to have parents who taught me how to do those things. And then I graduated college and were having, I was having conversations with female friends of mine.
They were all coming to me for financial advice. I was the friend they were all coming to and it became very clear to me, very obvious of like, oh, this is not normal. This was a privilege. And with that privilege comes a responsibility. And so I graduated college in May, 2016. I. Uh, started her first, under K a month after the election.
So I started it, what it was a blog at the time. It later became her first a hundred K it evolved once I realized just that it's our best form of protest is having a financial education. Having financial agency is our best form of protest. I was coming into adulthood, coming into womanhood in a very different America than I expected.
You know, I expected our first female president. We got Donald Trump and it was one of those things where I was just realizing, oh gosh, so this feminist movement, that's wanting a quality and not just for women, but equality for everybody. It doesn't happen until we have financial agency. It doesn't happen until.
You know, we have the financial means to start leaving toxic situations. We don't want to be in anymore the decision to have kids or not have kids, the decision to get married or not get married, um, buying a house, starting a business, donating to causes you believe in, right? Everything changes when you have financial agency, when you have choices, because that's what money provides you.
So I think that that is really how I focused in on my mission was just the realization that there, there were a lot of people talking about money, but very few, at least at the time, talking about money through this lens of seeing it inherently as feminists seen it inherently as a form of protest, just by getting your financial shit together, just by working to not be a statistic around debt or around, you know, not starting investing.
So that was, I think, what really brought me, brought me to what her first a hundred K is.
Rich: Interesting because I've been thinking about the past few years and you've probably noticed it too. It feels like the interest in personal finance has exploded. Definitely. It feels like money is finally cool. And even like, yeah, we're, we're, we're getting there and you get into a place where I still see folks say, it's, it's a taboo topic.
And in many households, money is still a taboo topic, but it's becoming a lot less taboo just because of how many people I see jumping into this space. And I've been asking people like, why do you, why do you think that is? And, and you might've answered it in a, in a way, because I've noticed given the past few years what's been happening politically, what's been happening now in the last year, over the course of the pandemic where people are kind of like, yo I've had time to sit, think like every flat and, and this isn't what I want.
Like, no, I'm, I'm tired of this. Like if things aren't going to work out in DC or wherever to create the type of change and, and, and policy that I need to improve the state of my affairs and, and those that I'm close to, and those that are around me, then I need to take that on myself.
Tori: Well, I think it's the, the root of us.
I started way earlier, you know, you could argue decades and decades, but I think it really started with 2008 and then probably with occupy wall street. What was that? 2012? Um, just around, you know, just realizing the vast wealth inequality around the world, but especially in the United States. And again, realizing that it is directly linked to our political system is directly linked to who has power, who has influence, who can actively fight for change.
The people who unfortunately are the most influential are the people who have the most money. And I'm not saying we should go out and be, you know, Jeff Bezos level, billionaire trillionaires, but just having again, the agency to make your own choices is, is an act of protest in and of itself. If you, yeah.
If you're a woman where you're in a toxic job and you're getting sexually harassed every day, but you have to. Because you need the money, right? It is an act of protest against unjust systems to have the agency that's have the financial means and the agency in order to leave. Right? Because you don't have to be there anymore.
You don't have to put up with that anymore. Or you can, you know, you can Sue the company because you have the legal means to do so. Right? So there's, there's so much power that comes just from having your financial shit together, right. From not, not feeling like you have to live paycheck to paycheck from not feeling like, again, you have to stay in these toxic systems that, um, that don't serve you.
Rich: I love that because I really see finances as freedom. That, that was the big thing for me. When I got out of debt, it wasn't just to get out of debt, just stop paying interest. It was like, I don't want anything hanging over my head. I don't want anyone coming after me. I don't want to be thinking about what if I end up in one bad life situation.
Now, suddenly I've got collectors calling and all of this other stuff. And now I'm at a place where with money, you can't tell me what to do. I mean, I'm not out here with that bayzos coin, but, uh, just being in a place where even if I want to go on a vacation or if I want to do something last minute, there's, there's not that, oh, let me, I do look at my statements and stuff, but there's not that same.
Like, can we pull this off? It's like, look, I want to do this. We want to do this. Let's go do it. Let's make it happen.
Tori: Same thing with me. I, I, uh, combine my friends dinner and not think twice about it. Isn't that a thing of beauty? Oh, it's beautiful. I can go out for 150 $200 dinner because that's what I love.
That's what I love spending my money on. I love good food and I can, you know, I know my friends make slightly less than me and that's not a weird dynamic, cause we've all talked about it and I'm like, I got it. Like, I'll take it. Not a big deal. I got it this time. Like that's so cool. It's so cool to be able to, you know, one have a group of friends where you can discuss money so openly, but to also, for me, it was just like, Yes.
Yeah. This is why this is what financial agency can provide. And I think it's so clear for folks too, when you're trying to work towards any financial goal, it's not, it's not the number or it's not, you know, the get out of debt. It's the w how does your life change because of this? Right. So like my a hundred K, so I saved a hundred K at 25 that's that was kind of the origin story of her first hundred K and a hundred K I'm very, actually motivated by numbers.
So it was part of like being able to see that a hundred K it was more that that was going to give me the flexibility to quit my job that was going to give me. The, uh, the basis or the foundation, again, to have enough money to quit my job, to run my business and fall back on that money in case I needed it, I ended up, you know, very thankfully not needing it because my business took off.
But you know, that was, that was the intent behind the saving the a hundred K I feel like so many people are like, okay, well, I'll save like $10,000 this year, and then it doesn't happen. And they wonder why, why are you saving $10,000? Are you saving $10,000 to be able to travel internationally twice? This year you're saving $10,000 because it's half of a down payment on a house.
Are you saving $10,000? Because again, you need that emergency fund in order for you to be able to make more flexible choices for your life. So, yeah, it's not enough to just say I'm going to get out. Because, right. It's, it's, I'm going to get out of debt for you. Like, you know, I don't want that hanging over my head anymore.
I don't want to continue having to pay this interest payment. I'd rather use this $400 in paying a month to go out, to eat, to save for a house, to do this other thing. So I think that when you are trying to save financial or save or, you know, set financial goals, it's so it's so important to not only get clear on exactly what the goal is, but like, why are you doing it?
Why? Because when it gets really hard and you don't want to do it anymore, right. When you were like month, six or month 12, or, and you're like, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to keep saving money. I don't want to keep league trying to pay off my debt aggressively. It's like, this is the thing that keeps motivating.
Rich: You just said a word there, because one of the first things I asked people about anything is, is why. And a lot of times I get people asking me about starting a podcast. And we'll talk about what you have going in that world where appropriate. The first thing I ask people is, is, is why I, why do you want to start a show?
Because it's, it's a lot of work. And if you don't have some type of outcome and it doesn't have to be sponsors, it doesn't have to be, it doesn't even have to be something financial. It could be just something that, that really just aligns closely with your values. And it feeds you and recharges you, it could be your hobby, it could be your equivalent of your gardening.
It could be anything really, but it's important that, that you have that, that why. And, uh, and what I've talked about in the show in the past is this idea of like emotional goals and everything. Can't be an emotional goal. Like me getting up at 6:00 AM. Can't be emotion. I could make an emotional probably, but it's not an emotional thing.
I think about the goals that when you. When you think about achieving them, you actually like, feel something like your hair stands up or like you get a chill. Like you actually get a little bit emotional. I found that like, those are the types of goals that even with something like getting out of debt where you think about that feeling of getting out of debt and it's like, oh, the freedom, the things I'll be able to do.
What will that feel like? I've found that part to be a really helpful if it's not something tangible, like I want to leave my job or I want to get to X number of dollars to also think about like what it will actually feel like to achieve
Tori: that goal. That's what's so great about getting specific. And then I put the other layer on it, which is, this is not just about you.
This is about this larger systemic change, right? Of you paying off debt and not being another statistic as a woman, a person of color, a member of the LGBTQ Q community, a differently abled person, right? You not being in debt or you having financial agency or you buying a home is an active form of protest.
So it's all of those things that, of course you're excited about, right. That make your life better, that you have for a specific reason. And then in addition, it is a form of protest inherently against these unjust systems. So it's like a doubly motivated thing. So again, when you like, don't want to save and more money, and when you're like, why do I have to keep doing this?
Right? It's not just your own personal goal. It's like, I'm literally working to change the world by changing my own life. Because the entire communities around you start to change when you have that financial agency, when you have that freedom, when you have that choice, because it's not, you know, it's not, uh, it's not just you.
It's, it's you changing your own life and inherently fighting against a system that is trying to keep you down is trying to keep you from buying a home. It's trying to keep you in. Data's trying to keep you in that toxic situation. And that's what I've seen with my work is like I get messages. I used to say every day, it's like every, probably half hour now from women who are like, I was able to leave my toxic boyfriend because I can afford my own apartment now.
Right. Or I negotiated $10,000 more in my salary. And that, that is enough money now where I can start saving and saving more money. I haven't been able to save before now I can, or yeah, I pay off my student loan debt and now I can find, go travel at the rate I want to, or I can buy a home. And so it's the coolest thing to know that personal finance is it's not boring.
And it's, it's one of those things where again, if, if you are changing your own life, if you are working to improve your own life inherently, that is okay. And F to this, this unjust system,
Rich: it is, I was thinking about some of the financial goals that I have. And I was think about how you talked about how it's nice to be able to take your friends out and treat them.
I love being able to do stuff like that, not just the stunt, but I just like seeing people. Yeah. Yeah. I've been thinking for a while. Like, I can't wait to, I'm ready to start a scholarship fund. I got, I've been thinking about this for like,
Tori: that's me too. I just, it had never crossed my mind because I that's why I was like, oh, that's for like insanely like old, rich white couples, you know?
Like, you know, like that's, that's that like? And so then I was like, I I'm realizing like, especially like next year, if we have the same year, I could start a scholarship at my university. Right. I could start, you know, a couple thousand dollars scholarship at my university, literally. Oh. But that's just occurred to me a couple, a couple of months ago, to be honest, because that's, isn't that the funny thing.
And, and obviously, you know, you're a person of color. And so I imagine it's even more unloaded because yeah. I mean, for me, I'm like, I'm young, I'm in my twenties. I'm like, that's not for me. Right. And then just thinking about it, I'm like, it can be for me. Right. Or it can be for a black man. It can be for, you know, that's, that's the, the coolest thing again, it's like financial agency.
It's like, all right, what good do I want to do with this money? How many people do I want to employ? How many women do I want to employ in my company? That's what I'm going through right now. I was like, cool. My life's changing now that we're making really good money. How can I make sure that I'm bringing women on who I love and who I respect and who I want to see grow.
Have them share in that too,
Rich: that is intention, clarity, purpose, values, even be able to like, think like that and op like, that's just all of those things in one, which is incredible. And before I lose this thought, because my memory be struggling, uh, I, I was thinking about the conversations that you've had with your friends about money and how did you all get to the place of even being able to talk about money or were y'all already kind of just like of similar mindset and kind of connect.
And we're like, yay. We've been looking for people to have these quite these types of conversations with, and y'all became friends.
Tori: I think, um, part of the, uh, unspoken contract of friendship with Tori Dunlap is that you're going to have conversation. It's about money. Like you're coming into a relationship with me, whether that's romantic, platonic, you know, like, you know, you're going to talk about money.
It's going to be pretty quick. So, uh, you know, my best friend and I have known each other for four or five years. And so, you know, she knew me pre her first hundred K and, um, I think a lot of it is just growing trust in other aspects of your life. And so money just feels like the next thing to talk about.
Um, and you know, this stat I'm sure, but we're more likely to talk about sex, politics, religion, death, pretty much every other uncomfy topic before we will have a conversation about money. And so for me, it's, it's, it's just one of those natural things where you can just start having conversations. I remember I probably was like two or three years ago at the point we went out to dinner, my best friend and I for where?
Uh, my birthday. Yeah. We decided to like ball out on this like four course five course meal that was going to be like 80 bucks a piece. She invited me out, she made the reservation and she just told me, she was like, oh, I got, you know, I'll buy your, I'll buy you your first drink. And then when we were deciding on what to get, you know, for the menu, we were both looking at that, you know, that kind of four or five horse thing.
And I was like, Hey, so, you know, I'm assuming that you're not comfortable paying for me for this. And she was like, no, not really. And I'm like, okay, no worries. Yeah, I can, you know, um, I'm great with that. Right. And so that was talking about money in a really transparent way, but it was really short and it was, you know, nobody got their feelings hurt.
Right. And it was just like me clarifying of like, Hey, this is pretty expensive. I'm assuming we want to go Dutch on this. And she's like, yeah, like that's easy, you know? And so I think once you start doing it. Start potentially having this uncomfortable topic, it starts getting more comfortable. The more frequently you do it.
And it doesn't have to be again, like we're going to sit down right now and we are going to have a four hour conversation about personal finance. It could be that maybe that works for you. I don't like that at all. If you're managing money with a partner, right. You're probably going to have more of those conversations.
Like for me, with my friends, with my family, again, inherit like unspoken rule that you're going to have this conversation with me. We're going to have, we're going to talk about money. Um, but in addition, it's just these small moments of just gaining or building trust and gaining comfortability in those, in those potentially uncomfy moments.
Rich: I'm thinking about a lot of my friends and we probably wouldn't get to this level of conversation about finances. I also think in many ways, hetero. Men just operate differently. Black men operate differently in terms of the conversations that we have with each other, what we share, uh, what we don't share.
I have noticed that crypto is the great uniter amongst us, where, you know, everyone's dabbling and talking about like what's happened throughout the days.
Tori: Oh. And I still think, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I mean, at least the data and my qualitative data in my life shows that men are more likely to talk about money and especially around the stock market.
And so women feel so left out of those conversations and so intimidated by them.
Rich: I've been saying for like the last few days, now that crypto feels like the new fantasy sports for better or worse, because
Tori: it kind of does doesn't it.
Rich: Hyper masculine, super masculine. But fortunately I haven't seen the ugly side of that, Matt.
So when I say hyper masculine, I just mean I only see men in it. I don't mean it's toxic. I'm sure
Tori: it is toxic. We can talk about it.
Rich: Okay, cool. So I, I personally haven't witnessed it, but I have noticed I'm like, yo, I am yet to come across. Well, that's not, that's not fully true. I know very few women who are in this space, everyone that I know who's obsessively talking about.
This is a dude. And for the most part, the people who I hear obsessively talking about. Are white dudes. Yeah. But I'm noticing that within a circles, like mine, that there is an increase around this one. And probably just because it is like stock and it's like, it's already a natural inclination for us. I'm thinking if things ever become more regulated or settled, I can just see it being just like a huge other issue of inequality.
So even learning how to get into that, I had to adjust to like the way the market, just like it. I've never seen anything like that. The way that it berries up, like literally from hours where like I opened my phone and I'm like, oh, suddenly I'm down like $800. Oh, now I'm up 200. Yeah. There will be a reckoning in that space as well.
I think here's the
Tori: thing it's so interesting because they're still not fully reckoning and the stock market and the stock market, it's been around for 125 years. So if crypto goes the same way, we're looking at centuries, right? Yeah. Potentially. So that's, again, the mission behind her first hundred K.
Unfortunately. And I had her a normative relationship. The man handles the wealth building. The woman handles the day-to-day finances, women handle the coupon clipping and the budgeting and the, uh, if anybody's still balances their checkbook anymore, balancing the checkbook, right. They handle the day to day finances.
Men are buying real estate. Men are investing. Men are learning about stocks are learning about crypto, right? They are doing the big wealth building. Yeah. Or they're making the big wealth building decisions. So this is still happening. We're in 2021. Right. And assuming you're in a heteronormative couple, right.
That's still what's happening statistically. More and more women are gaining agency. You know, I'm hopefully on the forefront of that and hoping to change that along with many other women and many other people, but that's still where we're at. Like we're still at men are trading stocks and doing. Women are shopping at the grocery store.
Like that's still where we're at. And I think, again, the world starts to change when women have more agency, when women have representation in these places, I am a financial expert. I'm not invested in crypto at all because frankly it does feel intimidating and it feels super broey. And I don't want it, like I'm not interested in it because it feels so broey and I'm like, I don't want, I don't, I, I don't feel welcome in this space.
Women in my community have repeated, who told me, especially after the whole GameStop thing, that anytime they would like try to go on these Reddit forums and have conversations and ask questions and then would literally straight up tell them you don't belong here. This isn't right. Like you're a woman, this isn't for you.
It's 20, 21. And we still get told this. I get told literally every single day I talk about money for a living. And I get told every single day that this is not for me and that I should sit down and shut up. And the, I get told this every single day. And so like, this is what we're fighting against. And again, if like, if you're a woman of color, I can't even imagine.
Right. That's even an another barrier or if you're a gay woman or if you're, you know, like you have all of these things that are repeatedly keeping you from gaining education and agency, because it feels intimidating because it feels like all of these different things. So yeah, I think, um, I'm I'm, if you haven't experienced it, I want to tell you that crypto is yes, as hyper-masculine it's also there's, there's parts of it that are super toxic.
There's parts of all these communities dominated by men that are super toxic and, um, Hyper-masculine in a not great way at times. Yeah. So I think that, yeah, and again, like I give this example a lot, but, um, we talked about wall street, right? 90% more. I think, I think it's like 92% of people who work on wall street are men.
And every representation we've seen of wall street, whether that's in movies or on CNBC rate is very masculine. We have this like stock ticker, that's super intimidating and masculine. And then the ball out in front of the financial district, it's a ball the most like masculine, like statute it's like this.
And then we touch it's testicles. You've you've been in New York. You've been in New York. You touch its testicles for financial prosperity. You go out and you rub its balls for financial prospects. Of course, women don't feel welcome. Of course women don't feel
Rich: welcome. That's a thing. So I lived in your face.
For years, I've been down to wall street. I've seen, said, bull people. Can't see what I just did. But I tried to act like I was Goring somebody and I did not know that it was a thing to cup. It said Spears in hopes of financial prospects.
Tori: But so many women come to me and they were like, you know, they almost whispered they're like, what is a stock?
Like what is a stock? Like, they can't define what a stock is and that's not their fault. So of course they can't have conversations about diversification and asset allocation and all of these things that are like in a different language, you know? And then crypto on top of it, it's the same sort of thing, but wearing a slightly different outfit, right?
Like it's the same sort of thing.
Rich: Know you made me think of something else and I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time talking about like social media engagement, but I've, I've noticed. Cause I've just started like trying new things. Like, let me, let me see what, like what happens when I talk about crypto, let me see what happens.
Yeah, it is a very distinct, even in terms of like followers and things that take up. When I talk about crypto more men flow in, and I actually noticed when I've talked about it a little bit more frequently, I actually lose women, which is kind of what, which has been kind of interesting to see. So, uh, everything you're saying, like everything you're saying, I'm like, Hmm, that's probably some of what's going on here.
And it, and it's super early on. I hadn't even thought about the fact that in 2021, no, that's not, not nothing surprises me anymore, but just because I hadn't thought about it, doesn't make it crazy. So it doesn't surprise me that in 2021, people would still say some of these things. I mean, we've seen, we had what happened on January 6th and other types of create or January 8th, whatever day that was the insurrection.
Nothing really surprises me, but, but it's, it's still disheartening to, to hear that, that when someone's trying to pursue information to improve the, the state of their life and the state of their affairs, that, that they're being told you can't be here. It actually reminds me of one of your stories, a guy, he, he was so salty that you made a hundred thousand dollars.
Like he made it his personal mission to try to make more than you.
Tori: I get the shit all the time. There's an email. And then I posted it and screenshot it on Instagram. Yeah. This guy just decided he was going to email, uh, our general email, which my assistant receives, which yeah. I'm trying to protect my team at all costs.
And there's only so much I can do. But, um, yeah, this guy was like, Uh, and I'm going to butcher it. It was even more cruel than this, but it was like, I saw you saved a hundred K at 25, and I just wanted to tell you that, like I did it first and I did it before you, and I saw if you can do it that I can probably do it and I can do it before, because basically like a woman is not going to outdo me.
He's a stranger. I don't know him. Yeah. He was like, so just wanted to let you know, like, you went out of your way to send me an email, the privilege that takes to do that, to send me, oh. And his name was tied to it. I'm like, you want me to look you up on LinkedIn? Like, but I can't do anything because yeah.
The threatening aspect of it. I mean, we can, we can talk about this further, but I got, I went like negative viral in November for talking about like influencer rates and how we should all be charging more and about how these huge brands are undercutting. Influencers and undercutting content creators, because they're largely women and women don't know how to negotiate or don't feel comfortable negotiating.
And so they take these really, really small amounts. And it's also such a veiled industry because it's so new. So very few people are talking about, you know, there's no glass door for influencers, at least, you know, not, not at that level. You can't go onto glass door and be like, oh, for one ticked off, what should I charge right.
With this many followers and this amount of engagement. So I talked about, I didn't name the brand, but I talked about how, you know, this huge brand was going to pay me the small amount of money for like two Tik TOK videos with, you know, I had at the time 800,000 followers and oh my God, a bunch of people were supportive.
A bunch of people. I mean, I got death threats. I got a negative comment every five minutes and it wasn't just like, you're wrong. It was like, you're a bitch. You're an, a grateful bitch. Sit down and shut up. Like, how dare you? I have never experienced hate, like. I get hate. And literally every day we get a hate comment all the time, but like that influx was so scary.
We got literally emails to, yeah, we got emails to our general email that were like, you are in grateful. You need to sit down and shut up. You insert really aggressive, horrible name for a woman right here. I think that one was anonymous, but it was just like the subject line was a sponsorship inquiry. So they got me to click on it.
And then that was, that was the message of the email. It is
Rich: one of the more trash things that I've heard, but go, that's
Tori: awful. And just like, you should go die. Like how dare you. You should, you should go kill yourself. This is what it's like to be a woman online, everything. I've had conversations with anybody, any woman who has a platform.
And I'm sure, I'm sure you've, you've received some of it as, as a black man. Like that's the crazy thing about just trying to talk about like, just try to have a conversation about money. Like I know that if it wasn't about money granted, like, you know, I get called fat every day, so that's another thing.
But like, if it wasn't about money, they wouldn't have such a field day with it. And even women, the worst comments, honestly come from women who have all of this, unfortunately like internalized misogyny around.
Rich: I think I know what that means, but can you say more so I know what massaging is, but when you say internalized misogyny, what do you mean by
Tori: Sure. So we all have internalized misogyny. I have internalized misogyny, right? Because we grew up in a patriarchal world. So we have this misogyny in us. Right. But a lot of us are hoping and working to unlearn, but that, you know, we have, uh, you know, into, uh, internalized racism. Right. We have biases. We have all of these things that we have to deal with.
Right. Because of just the system we grew up. So like, you know, perfect example is I had this woman who, um, came on, she had, she had left all these comments about how me talking about my work and me celebrating my achievements in terms of saving money. She was like, I think this is like, you're being braggy.
And like you talking about money, like, so blatantly is like super tacky. Right. And actually I went on a, so I posted that on, on tiptop. She was like, I don't like, I don't want to see about your accomplishments. Like it's braggy. It's ridiculous. And like, why can't you just stick to educating? And so I went on Instagram and I was actually talking about it and she happened to join my Instagram live, where I was talking to.
The internalized misogyny of those kinds of comments, which is like when men like Elon Musk, perfect example, Elon Musk, sneezes, people lose their minds. They're like, oh my God. Oh yeah. What a brilliant man, like, oh, I'm love what he's doing. He's such an innovator. I went on a date with a guy, like a month ago and the date was already like, eh, but then he was like, he said, he goes, I think like Elon Musk is doing more for this world than anybody right now.
And I was like, well, you are not getting a second date. I was like, I'm out. Like, that's the, that's the thing with it? You know, we, we do this, especially with white men, right? Like, oh my gosh, this man is so brilliant. So amazing. And anytime he does anything, we're like so excited. And then I go on and talk about.
Making half a million dollars in my business last year. Right. Or being able to, yeah, bye bye. My friend's dinner and the internalized misogyny goes like not that's bragging for women, right? That's bragging. That's tacky. Why do you have to talk about yourself? Why can't you just be humble? Right. Why are you so transparent?
And so what I was talking about on the live was like, we have this and, you know, internalized misogyny around these things where we have a double standard for how women can talk about money versus men, especially in a public public space. And she actually was in the live and commented and she goes, I am so sorry.
Like this was my international, this was like my uncomfortability around money, my uncomfortability with like me not being able to achieve my goals and seeing another woman potentially have what I want and being upset about it. Right. We have been told as women, and I'm sure, you know, as, as people of color, right, that there's, there is one seat at the table.
There's one seat at the table. And so in doing so, they have created a survival of the fittest, where if there's only one seat at the table for a woman, one seat at the table for a person of color, once you did the table for, then we all fight each other. Exactly. We all fight each other to get that one seat at the table.
So we take each other down because again, we live in this patriarchal racist system. That's like, you have to do that. You have to fight each other. Not you have to build a new table, right. Let's build a new table, let's build a new table. So we don't have to fight each other or look slowly, take out the straight white men who have been there for way too long.
I would rather build my own table, but that's the thing, right? It's like all of this internalized misogyny, internalized racism, internalized ableism, right. Is. One of the reasons that money is so uncomfortable because we've been told that money should be uncomfortable by the very people who have money.
The money is taboo. Money is uncomfortable. Money talking about money is tacky. Narrative has perpetuated by the patriarchy because the patriarchy already has money. They already have power, right? They're talking about money. So the more they tell you to not talk about money, the more they tell you, you shouldn't want money because that's greedy or bad.
You shouldn't want to talk about money because that is uncomfortable or that is taboo. The more they stay in power rant over, I'm getting off my soap box. But yeah, that for me is like, again, one of the big things I'm trying to change here is like, how do we not only talk about money, but how do we like celebrate our accomplishments?
If we're going to create communities of nonjudgmental money conversations that doesn't just include people who are just getting started, right. Or who made mistakes or who are in debt. It also includes people who are killing it, right? I've hopefully created a community where people are going to come.
Support each other when they do make six figures or when my business does half a million or when you are killing it and can afford all of these things. Right? So if we're going to create these nonjudgmental systems, they need to exist both at the beginning of your journey. And when you're killing it, when you're doing really well, because there's judgment on both sides, there's judgment and shame here.
And also, especially for women there's judgment or shame on the other side, which is like, why are you making all that money? Why are you talking about it? It's like, I'm making all that money. I want all of you to make that amount of money. Yeah.
Rich: Why not? As you were talking, I was thinking about a conversation I had at work recently where we were talking about white dominant norms.
What you just described as patriarchy sounded the exact same as white dominant norms and the conversation that I was having, because I had the same reaction where I was like, right. Like I've been like not wanting to brag and wanting to keep my accomplishments loving. You know, not celebrate things and just get through.
And I was like,
Tori: oh right. You thriving in life. You thriving financially as a black man is an art to protest and, and other people need to see it in my right. And that's the thing for me too, as it's like people seeing me be confident, people seeing me live my own life. People seeing me have choices and agency, if you have worked through that misogyny, right.
Then hopefully you see somebody like me and you go, yes, let's go like, cool. I want that let's I want that for every woman and want that for every person let's go. And when I say patriarchy, I do mean the racist system too. It's the systems that are put in place to limit somebody, whether that's a woman, person of color, et cetera, et cetera.
So, yeah, I mean, patriarchy is definitely more of the quote unquote feminist issue, but it is like the systems we exist in that continually tell a certain marginalized group. This world is not for them. Right? North is these systems are not for them because frankly they're not the system isn't in its current form.
It is not for us. And so we have to, again, not only work to change our decisions within this current system, but change the system itself.
Rich: Yeah. I'm going to be sitting here after this recording, doing a lot of reflecting because you got me wanting to go out here and, uh, and change the world even more because I'm thinking about what I can do and what others can do without it being like some big grandiose out there with a sign or out there, because that's not my thing.
You can take a form of protest just by how you live your life, which is, uh, I think a really interesting takeaway for folks. Now, I did want to chat with you about you posted a picture. You posted a lot of pictures, but you, you posted a picture was in a hotel. You were on a bed. So people probably hear this and they're like, where's this going?
Tori: Yeah, you're going to bring this up. Let's talk about it.
Rich: Yeah. And I'm going to bring it up in full candor because at first, when I looked at it, I didn't look at it and say, and think something like negative about you. Cause I know you and I'm like, yo, I love this body positivity. But I was like, Ooh, why does she post that?
Like, I'll be honest. I thought that looking at it,
Tori: you know, maybe let's, let's set the scene of what this is. I'm, I'm not in lingerie. I am in underwear, but happens to be period underwear, which for those of you don't know, there's underwear out there that soaks up your menstrual blood. I was on my period at the time I took that photo.
I am in a sweater and underwear. Uh, the only part of my skin you can really see is my legs. Um, it is not like inherently sexual, although, you know, you can, you can decide what is sexual. Everybody can decide that. Um, oh yeah, that photo, that photo had, it was a very polarizing photo. It's very interesting, but you, you probably have a question around it.
So go for it.
Rich: Well, at the time, because I was heavy just reading those comments because I'm one of those people I'm just fascinated by how humans respond to things. And I'm fascinated by how people grow their audiences. Yeah. And I knew that it was going to be, the rider dies are gonna ride or die, even harder
Tori: as a former marketing person.
I actually, one of the best things I can suggest to you is post a photo or a post, a caption that may be polarizing because what'll happen is the people who are not, your people will leave. They will see themselves out. Now they will come kicking and screaming. They will tell you they don't like this, but they will leave like this.
This started when I started, you know, talking about how problematic Dave Ramsey is, plenty of people were like, I don't. I like Dave Ramsey and I'm like, okay, then it sounds like this community is not for you. Like, okay. I wish you all the best, but like there's the door. Right? And, um, that's what happened here.
The, the, probably the quote unquote controversial thing, as you could clearly see, I had body hair and for me, I am existing in my body. I am existing in my body and more and more, I am not even aiming for body positivity. I mean, for body neutrality, because something about body positivity inherently says, quote, you are brave for showing up in your body.
You are being brave because we don't see people like you. We don't see women's bodies like you. So like congratulations. Yes, queen, you are brave. I am just existing in my body. This is the body that I was given with all of its imperfections, with all of the things I'm self-conscious about. But it is the least important thing about me.
It is the least interesting thing about me right now. It is beautiful. It gets me through the day. It allows me to walk 30,000 steps. It allows me to do all of these things, right. But at the end of the day, it is the least important thing about me. And something about body positivity says like you being, having the audacity to show up in a bikini or to show up with body hair is like RA, you are brave, right?
It's not, I'm not brave. And it's kind of insulting to insinuate that I am. Right. I'm just trying to show up. I'm just trying to exist. Right. I'm just trying to exist in my body. The other part about it is a bunch of people were like, I don't want to see my financial expert posts about that. Fine. That's fine.
That's fine. My whole thing as again, I could be a duality. I can be a bunch of different things. I don't just have to talk about money. Right. I can post a photo of me in my underwear and also. I'm just existing. I'm not making a statement. We have body hair is a crazy thing. All of us have body hair and a bunch of women were coming and they were like, I don't want to see that.
Like, you should shave it off. You should like completely wax. You should do all these things. And I'm like, I don't have to do all these things. And again, for me, it's internalized misogyny of, if you choose to do that, that's great. If you choose to remove your body hair, if you choose to do that for me, like I often don't, that's, that's not what I, that's not how I want to live in exist in my body.
And so when we see these yeah, and we see these things as super controversial, because maybe people aren't showing up in those ways, or again, we have these, these set norms of how women should show up. So when we think, oh, I don't want to see like my financial advisor and period underwear. Well, how do you want to see her?
You want to see her in a pencil skirt because that's not her 24 7. I don't show up in pencil skirts. No, no, no. Like if you, if you knew anything about me, right? You would know that, that the expectations you have are completely irrelevant and completely not even about me. And you also don't get to come on to my page and to my space and to my community that I've cultivated.
And tell me what is on brand or not the people
Rich: telling you who and what your brand should be. That's one of my favorite things, but, and I say that with the utmost sarcasm. Yeah. Uh, where, uh, where people feel that they get to have an opinion on your life and how you do things, but it's also just the price of doing business online.
Yeah. It's just, it's just, it's just the price of doing business. I know that you also recently started a podcast, a. Topping Dave Ramsey, destroying podcast.
Tori: Rich. I love that pivot. We went from, we went from pubic hair to Dave Ramsey park.
Rich: That's what, yeah, I was, as I was talking, I was like, that was the kind of, that was just kind of like a complete switch, but I was like, maybe I can do a little bit
Tori: of iteration.
Yeah. Great. I'm like I have a multi-faceted woman let's talk about.
Rich: Yeah. And, um, because you're, you're starting this podcast and it ties together. I'm going to bring it all home. It ties together because the comfortableness with, with self there's, the, the, the purpose, the alignment, the vision, there's the, uh, taking down the patriarchy white dominant norms, a lot of different things.
There's also been, I feel like it's been a personal crusade for you to take down Dave for, uh, for a number of years. Now, you actually, with the launch of your podcast were able to take the number one spot in business. So congratulations on that with like two episodes at the time of this recording, there's a couple of episodes that are there.
So congratulations on that. I just love seeing that, uh, as, as much as you've been the counter, I was going to try to do another analogy, but it wasn't working, but as, as much as you'd been the, uh, counter to Dave to then see on the podcast charge you overtake that number one spot was awesome to see. So can you talk a little bit about the podcast and, and how that came about?
I didn't know. I guess how would I know, um, until you told the world about it, but I was like, oh shit, Tory's doing a podcast. Of course, she's doing a pocket like this. This makes complete sense. So can you talk about that a
Tori: little bit? I guess it's called financial feminist and it is if, yeah, my Instagram was a podcast, like I was saying before, we don't want to just do the actual advice that we have more control over the, how to increase your credit scores, the overcoming your psychological bullshit around money.
We do that. Um, we also have these deep dive interview episodes about how money affects women differently on Mondays. I'm doing these more actionable, short episodes that are under 15 minutes. And then on Fridays, I am bringing on guests to talk about these kinds of deeper conversations. So a multilevel marketing companies, MLMs and how they are predatory.
Totally. We're talking about the cash bail system. We're talking about the racial wealth gap. We're talking about sustainability and investing in the, the, again, the, the gap, the wealth gap, the investing gap when it comes to women. So I'm really excited for this first season. Um, we're having these conversations that I don't think a lot of other people are having about not just the, how to, but the, how we got here and money affects every aspect of our lives.
And so we need to talk about it like it does. We need to have these conversations about these deeper issues that are rooted around money. Yeah. It came out May 17th was our first episode. Um, and about two days later we had, we had taken the top spot on the business podcast. We were the only woman focused women hosted podcasts and the top 25, which was amazing and also very unfortunate.
Um, At least of this recording, hopefully we get even higher, but we were top 17 of all podcasts in the world. So we were in the top 20 for every sort of podcast and so dope. We took the top spot from the Ramsey show and I've been very outspoken in just, I view the world very differently than Dean Dave Ramsey does and viewing personal finance education very differently than he does.
And, um, I don't believe in shaming, judgmental, uh, not acknowledging systemic oppression, personal finance. I don't think it's helpful. And I really don't agree with a lot of his business practices and I've been very outspoken about that. And so, yeah, it was not only really cool to be the top podcast and to have the top business podcast, even as of this recording, we're talking as we're talking, it's still at the number one spot, but to also know that hopefully this is changing the financial narrative and the way find people to get financially educated, knowing that a woman blatantly feminine.
Is now on top of the charts, uh, previously, you know, the top spot previously held by someone who has, uh, allegedly fired, uh, female employees for, uh, getting pregnant and not being married. I saw that among other, among other dubious, uh, uh, place to run the business. Yeah, exactly. Dubious transgressions, but really good to have that top spot.
And it felt really, really good to know that financial feminism, this movement, this, this, this, yeah, it's a, it's a movement. This movement to see the world differently, to see money differently is here to stay. And that's just been, that's been the coolest and the support of my community. My community has been so supportive.
We had 1200 ratings before we even released the first episode. We have 1200 ratings and reviews. Like they just came out in droves for the show and support of me and it's part of our team. And like, I am so humbled by that and it's gonna make me cry, but I am so humbled by that to know that like, It's one thing to build something you're proud of.
It's another thing to have a team around you who believes in what you're doing as much as you, and it's an even cooler thing to have this larger community of people. You've never met. People who have never spoken to you, who believe in what you're doing as much as you do. And that's just so humbling.
Rich: I totally get that.
Actually. Part of the reason I started a podcast was because I went into the business charts, looking for personal finance shows and all I all were old white dudes in suits and Dave Ramsey. And I was like, This isn't for me, like, this is not the way that I want to get my fi I don't want to be told that I'm stupid.
Cause my parents didn't teach me something, you know, or it's implied that because I didn't have a certain set of things and I don't know how to do something. And I'm a freaking idiot.
Tori: The reason you're not rich is because you didn't work hard enough. Not that you, uh, grew up with less and that the entire system is repeatedly targeting you and your safety's at risk potentially everyday.
Like, again, this, this is not being discussed by a lot of people and it's happening more and more, but especially not a couple of years ago.
Rich: Yeah. So we're going to wrap up with something that I haven't done before and, uh, that I did not tell you about, but it's going to be fun and we're going to see how.
How this goes. So, uh, I'm going to show you this picture. Where was this?
Tori: Oh, that was, oh my gosh. I, my first in-person event, I was even before her first hundred K
Rich: so set the tone of what's in this, just like what's in the picture for people. Cause it, cause they can't see.
Tori: Sorry. Um, yeah, so I am, uh, on a panel.
I am speaking, I'm wearing a blue dress, um, fish nets and I look great. Uh, and yeah, I, that was my first event that I had ever planned. This was pre for her first hundred K. That was December of 2018. I launched her first hundred K rebranded in February of 2019. That was actually, yeah, one of those events where I was like, I love speaking, but I don't want to plan it.
So it was actually a turning point in my business because I thought I was going to do more in person events. And I was like, I don't want to plan these. So if we ever do events again, it's going to be my team planning it because I hated it. I hated the coordination so much. It was awful. I just, I'm not organized enough to do that.
It was very stressful, but yeah, I'm on a panel. With, um, a couple of other women that I invited on, including my good friend, Amanda Holden, who runs dumpster doggy, um, and the dumpster dog blog. So she's, she's not pictured in this, but she's sitting right next to me. So, yeah, that was one of my first events.
Rich: When you look at this picture, and then you think about just kind of where you are today and what's happening today, what comes to
Tori: mind? You just like, let's, let's see if we can make her cry. Like, let's see. Yes, it is it's so is like, Ooh, I'm going to get this photo of her. And how does it make her feel?
Because I do the same thing as a podcast host, I asked one of my guests I'm like, what would you tell younger you? And I was like, I just know, I'm like, ha ha. This person's going to be vulnerable and beautiful. Not in a manipulative way, but yeah. And so
Rich: context for people, uh, I was going back and looking at what we talked about on the, on the last episode.
And I saw this picture and then I was also thinking about just like how much has changed. I think about the pictures that I see of you now versus like this picture back then. And I feel like it's a completely different Tory
Tori: today. Yeah. Oh, now you're really gonna make me cry. This is not something we discuss enough is, but in addition to choices, in addition to agency having a financial foundation, I am the most confident person I've ever been.
And I've always been very confident, but I don't have to put up with toxicity. I don't have to be in situations that they don't want to be in anymore. Right. I don't have to exist in places. Yeah. That I, that I don't want to be. And that has done more for my confidence than anything standing in my power, knowing that, you know, if I go on a date, I can pay.
If, you know, I can pay and not think about it. And I'm not, I'm not here to find somebody to financially support me, you know, or, you know, when I speak in an event and I'm 26 and I'm the youngest person there by a decade, the thought used to be, oh gosh, I'm so lucky to be here. Like all of these other people are so much more experienced than I am.
And like, this is terrifying. The thought is now I belong here. I know that my work makes a difference. I know that what I'm going to say is going to help somebody. So of course I'm supposed to be here, not in a cocky way, but just, I know I'm supposed to be here. If I could point to anything, this is what I want my work to do because women play small because we've been told that we shouldn't play.
Sorry. Um, no, I'm not gonna apologize for crying, but I am sorry for the audio cause it's not gonna sound great, but that is, that is what it means to have this agency and to have choices is, um, I am so confident. I am working on my own shit constantly. You know, I, I have my own insecurity. It's just like everybody else I've gained weight and quarantine and that's really fucked me up quite frankly.
And I'm working through that, you know, but like, there are so many things about myself that I am just so proud of and I'm so proud of them because I did them myself. I took a very big solo trip that I didn't really talk about at all. I didn't talk about it on social media. My friends knew, but like I went on a, I went on a trip for a month.
I was gone for a month and I was there on my own dime. I got, um, A I rented a car for the whole time I was there and I got a free upgrade to a convertible. I'm driving around in a Mustang convertible. I am a 26 year old single woman I'm driving around in a Mustang convertible. I have done something that so many women dream of, which is taking time for themselves, going away, learning more about themselves, knowing, you know, just they're navigating, I'm navigating my own life.
You know, I go on a hike, you know, uh, no one else, you know, people know I'm out there obviously, but like I'm there by myself. I don't figure it out. I put myself here on my own dime. If I'm going to get myself in a situation, I have the agency and the power to get myself out. If I need to, I'm going to go out to dinner alone.
I'm going to have all these experiences. And like, that is what I want every woman to feel like that is the goal. Really that's the overarching, you know, that is the overarching goal is like, how, how do we give women? And everyday. Not just financial agency, but the confidence and, and the, the, again, foundation to be able to make those choices and to be able to live their lives.
I am, I am so proud of myself. I'm so proud of everything I've built and I want every woman to feel the way I do. I want every woman to exist in themselves and to be S be so proud of themselves and what they've accomplished. And that is what I want. That is what I want with her first on her. Okay. And so, yeah, you're exactly right.
The woman in that photo is very confident. I'm very confident. I'm also, uh, you know, a lot's changed. That was, I was still working for somebody else at that point and would for a whole year after that, I was still, you know, dealing with unfortunately, men at work who were intimidated by the business I was building, which was so funny because they're like, So much more experienced than I was.
I was still, yeah. I was about to go into a relationship that was gonna gonna very, uh, start very quickly and end very quickly. I didn't know that, um, you know, there's, there's so many things that we get started doing in our lives and we just, we just hope we figure it out along the way. And, um, yeah, I mean, um, in a lot of ways, the same person, I'm a lot of ways, a very different person now.
Um, but yeah, yeah. That's what I, that's what I hope for every woman with her first hundred K is, um, the agency to be able to, to be able to live the life that you want to be able to have, have confidence and be, be so, so in love with yourself, even when you fuck up and even when you have insecurities and even when you, you know, there's, there's things you're working through.
Yeah. I'm a, I'm a money and financial agency is one of the biggest confidence boosters I've ever got. So, yeah, I want that for every single woman.
Rich: I love that. I'm glad I did that little experiment because that yielded some awesome stuff. So, uh, got it, got it, got it. Got it. I'm so glad you came back on the podcast and, uh, uh, yeah, and that we got to have this, this conversation and I hope people will go and check out your podcast and check out everything that you're doing around the world, the web, especially as we get back to in-person events, I can only imagine that the realm of things that you have planned in the realm of opportunities that are coming your way.
So for those that, uh, are interested in learning a little bit more than they want to catch up with you, where can they find you around the web and all that good stuff. And then I, if there's anything else to note that you have coming out, that folks should be aware of, feel free to share that. I
Tori: appreciate it.
This is truly one of my favorite shows. Uh, I think you do such an amazing job and I am so thankful for you having me on the first time. I was so stoked to be there the first time, and I'm equally stoked to be here. So thanks for having me back on, I am at her first hundred K and all the socials, her F I R S T 1 0 0 K, or her first inner k.com.
We also have our podcasts, financial feminist, which is available on all podcast platforms. You can also go to a financial feminist podcast.com. We've got a lot of exciting things in the works, uh, in July, August, sometime in the summer, we're actually going to be releasing an investment platform to teach women how to invest.
And actually not only create a community of women who are investing, but actually get them started investing, which we're so excited about. And yeah, so we got, we got a bunch of stuff coming, so yeah, at her first hundred K primarily on Instagram and Tik TOK, come say hi, come join. The community would love to.
Rich: Go get it, Tori. Thanks for joining me. Thank you so
Tori: much for having me
Rich: know, tour is the best and I'm so glad that she came on the show and kept it so candid. And like I said, up top, the passion really does play a role. It may not be everything, but when you're as clear on your purpose, as Tory is good, things are bound to happen.
And I'm looking forward to having her back on the show again, down the road, and also keeping up with her progress. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to share with your network because the more people we reach, the more people we help also, don't forget to submit your question by dropping a note to [email protected] [email protected] myself and the team will be on the lookout.
Thanks so much for listening. And until next time do something dope.
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